How podcasts came to rule America’s campaign conversation

DONALD TRUMP likes to talk. That much was clear from his three-hour interview on “The Joe Rogan Experience”, America’s most popular podcast, on October 25th. He rambled about “The Apprentice”, Abraham Lincoln and aliens. It was not your usual presidential patter.

The Republican nominee has made “bro” podcasts an important part of his politicking. Alongside Joe Rogan’s show—the most in-depth interview he has done on the campaign trail—Mr Trump has appeared on “This Past Weekend” with Theo Von, a comedian, and “Impaulsive” with Logan Paul, a YouTuber.

His Democratic counterpart, too, has appeared on podcasts. Kamala Harris has focused on shows that are popular with young black men—such as “All the Smoke”, hosted by two former basketball stars—and those with large female fanbases, including “Unlocking Us”, hosted by Brené Brown, an academic, and “Call Her Daddy” with Alex Cooper (pictured). (Ms Harris is also said to be in negotiations to appear on Mr Rogan’s podcast.)

Both candidates are hoping to win over undecided voters and galvanise reluctant ones. According to Edison Research, a data firm, one in eight Americans who listen to a podcast weekly are not registered to vote. Mr Trump’s and Ms Harris’s podcast appearances mark a shift in strategy: neither candidate has sat down with the editorial board of the New York Times or major newspapers in swing states.

The trend reflects two developments. One is Americans’ faltering faith in traditional media. Today almost 70% of Americans have little or no trust in them, according to Gallup, a pollster. The other is the status of podcasts as a hugely popular and valued source of news. Almost 100m Americans listen to a podcast each week. Around 30 times as many people tune into Mr Rogan’s show as watch prime-time CNN. Unlike flicking through various TV channels, selecting a podcast is a deliberate act; the audience is more engaged.

The turn towards new media is visible in other countries with low levels of trust in the traditional kind. In France youngsters look to HugoDécrypte, a YouTuber, for analysis of the day’s headlines. In Canada Rebel News, an outfit founded in 2015 to challenge the mainstream media, posts interviews with right-wing politicians online and on its podcast.

In Britain “The Rest is Politics” draws the biggest listenership of any politics podcast. Hosted by two former politicians, the podcast offers an “insider’s view” and gets into the weeds of policy. In 2022 Keir Starmer appeared on the show in order to persuade Britons that his Labour Party was better than the incumbent Conservatives.

Yet there is a distinct flavour to the phenomenon in America, where the best-known hosts are laddish comedians (as with Mr Rogan and Mr Von, a mulleted stand-up from Louisiana) or influencers (Mr Paul boasts some 70m fans across YouTube, TikTok and Instagram). Their Everyman status is crucial to their appeal. Bro podcasts promise the sort of easy-going, irreverent conversation you’d get over a beer with your friends. “Impaulsive” is described as a “thought-provoking” chat hosted “by a bunch of idiots”. Mr Von describes himself as a “muppet”.

Whereas news anchors are dryly factual, podcast hosts are openly subjective. Listeners subscribe to shows they think will align with their views on current affairs. Hosts increase their audience by seeming cool and likeable; the style in which they chat with America’s top politicians is more important than the substance.

For candidates, the casual format allows them to show off their personality: it is easier to be fun when talking about sport than it is when discussing social welfare. They do not need to fear tough questions or fact-checks. (By one count, Mr Trump made more than 30 false claims during his interview with Mr Rogan.)

Fireside chats are here to stay, says Michael Morris, a professor at Columbia Business School. The traditional media interview may never regain its prominence on the campaign trail. And where America leads, other countries follow. In the years to come, expect to hear more aspiring leaders the world over shooting the breeze. ■